Interview Transcript

Interviewers:

Amanda Hetherington
Elisabeth Graham

 Interviewees:

Krzysztof “Chris” Plaza – Chris immigrated from Poland to the US about fifteen years ago.  He is married and has two sons.  He is in his 40s.  He works as a computer programmer. 

Teresa Sikora – Teresa, her husband, and her two sons immigrated from Poland to the US about fifteen years ago.  She is in her 40s.  She works as a caretaker for two young children.

Dagmara Drozdowska – Dagmara has been in the US for six months, although she has been in the US off-and-on for about three years.  She is in her early 20s.  She is a waitress at one restaurant in Chicago and a hostess at another restaurant.

Amanda: Explain the connection between religion (Catholicism) and Polish identity/ nationalism.

 Chris: Over the centuries we preserved our way of being, and religion was always the thing that united us against our enemies and other governments. There was a very tight relationship between religion and Polish identity. The Polish way of thinking about nationalism is based on 3 pillars: God, honor and homeland. That was always on our banners and flags. These three values guided us to protect our country.

 Amanda: Explain the relationship between religion and identity in your life.

 Chris: For me, I am very religious so there’s a close relation. We’ve been raised in a religious atmosphere so there’s something inside me that makes me feel this way.

 Elisabeth: What is the relationship between Poland and the rest of Europe as a whole? How does religion (especially Christianity) fit into this relationship?

 Chris: Since the beginning of creation, generally the nations in Europe have been religious. New generations have been raised with new goals and in a new atmosphere than previous generations, so religion is not as important as before. The previous generations looked at religion as a way to preserve freedom. Now of course, Poland is a free country and it’s part of the EU. We don’t need to preserve those values anymore because we’ve got them. Among the younger generations, the relationship between religion and nationalism is less strong. For fifty years, the other countries in Europe have been united in the EU, and Poland just joined three years ago. So for those fifty years, Poland was isolated. The communists didn’t allow the people to travel and exchange ideas, so that’s why I think our religion in Poland was preserved. The younger generation pays less attention to religion because of economic reasons.

 Dagmara: The older generations go to church more often. The government is so different and situations are different than they used to be. We have a better economic relationship with other European nations now.

 Teresa: I don’t think that religion is a big issue for Poland in international affairs. Poland has religion and other countries have other things and nobody really cares.

 Chris: Other European countries are Christian, so it’s not really a big issue because they are of the same general faith even though they’re not Catholic.

 Amanda: What do you think is the difference between the way Polish traditions are carried out in Poland and in America?

 Chris: Polish immigrants have integrated somewhat into American society. In addition to Polish traditions and holidays, we’ve also inherited American traditions, such as Thanksgiving.

 Teresa: I see the difference between my family here and my family in Poland. On Catholic holidays in Poland, we would have the day off from work and we would go to church. We don’t do that here. It wasn’t that I was more religious in Poland, but I would show it more.

 Dagmara: For example, in Poland everyday of the Easter season is like a holiday that’s celebrated whereas here, Easter Sunday is the only day that’s observed. Polish holidays here in the US keep Polish people together and keep them proud of their heritage. It makes me feel like I am not the only one, that I’m not alone; there are other people of the same religion and values as me.

 Teresa: Immigration is really hard; when you immigrate to a country, you feel like you've been through a war. Maybe because of that people are concentrating more on social areas of life and becoming less devoted to religion.

 Amanda: So in general you would say that Catholicism is stronger among Polish people then among Polish Americans.

 Teresa: Yes, definitely.  I have a friend back in Poland who isn’t really religious, but because he’s around all these religious people and in such an atmosphere and he’s in a small town, he’s gone to church more and become more religious. But if you were here in the United States you would lose that that influence, so you wouldn’t hold on to that religion.

 Chris: In a big city like Chicago, somebody can ‘hide’ from religion and the religious pressure and influence of other people, but in a small Polish town, that’s not possible.

 Amanda: Do you think nationalism would fade in Poland if religion faded?

 Chris: I think these two things [religion and nationalism] are not connected—one thing doesn’t have anything to do with the other.  Some people in Poland don’t have faith, but does that mean that they don’t like the country?  No.  There have been groups in history who don’t have a religious background, but are very nationalistic—for example, the Nazis.

 Dagmara: I think nationalism is more about the country than the religion.

 Elisabeth: What are the holidays and celebrations that are specifically Polish that mean the most to you?

 Chris: Polish Constitution Day, on May 3, means the most to me.  On this day in 1791, Poland created a constitution that was modeled after the U.S.’ constitution and the Bill of the Rights.  It was the first constitution in Europe like that; it gave freedom to people and did many important things.  The second most important day is Polish Independence Day, on November 11.  On this day in 1918, Polish independence was restored.  After 120 years under a partition between three countries, Poland became its own country.  The other countries that had partitioned Poland prohibited Poles from speaking their language and had forced them to speak Russian; they also banned Polish literature.  On this day, the right to speak our language and read Polish literature was restored, so this was a very important day in Polish history.

 Amanda: You said that during the period when Poland was partitioned, the Russian government made Polish people speak Russian.  I know that the situation with Russia was completely different when you were growing up than it was during the partition, but Teresa, isn’t it true that you had to learn Russian in school when you were growing up? 

 Teresa: Yes. Because of the Second World War and communism, we had to learn Russian in school.

 Chris: Actually, in grammar school we had to learn Russian, but in high school we had the opportunity to choose whether we wanted to study Russian, French or German.

 Teresa: But we didn’t!  I couldn’t say that I didn’t want to study Russian, because I had to.

 Chris: For you, the Russian language was imposed on you by the educational system, because for 50 years, Poland was under the control of the Soviet Union.

 Amanda: Teresa, how did you feel about being required to learn Russian?

 Teresa: My husband, Zbyszek, felt awful about learning Russian because his parents had told him about Poland’s history with Russia.  I didn’t know that history, so for me it wasn’t as bad, but I still didn’t like it.

 Chris: One good thing about learning Russian is that it allows you to read great literature, such as War & Peace. 

 Teresa: Yes, but what I didn’t like about it was that they forced us to learn it; you didn’t want to learn it, but they forced you to study it.  So I didn’t feel good about that.

 Chris: We were “friends” with Russia, so we had to study our “friend”’s language. [laughs] However, today in Poland, youngsters aren’t forced to learn Russian.  You could major in Russian, but it’s not very popular there today—German, French and Italian are the top foreign languages that are studied in Poland.

 Elisabeth: Going back a little bit, when Poland was partitioned and there basically wasn’t a Poland, you said that the language and traditions were able to be preserved.  How did that happen?

Chris: The language and the values were passed from generation to generation, from fathers to their kids, and so on.  Also, Polish writers and poets wrote literature and poems about Poland and its history, so people could read those and keep the Polish traditions alive.  Also, in the area of Poland that the Austro-Hungarian Empire controlled, near Krakow, there was more freedom of speech and more freedom in schools.  Of course, the language spoken in offices and schools at that time was German, but there was some freedom.  However, the more common situation in Poland was that of the area that was under Russian control, from Warsaw to the eastern edge of the country.  In this area of the country, the Russians strictly prohibited Poles from speaking their language.

 Teresa: If the Russian government knew or found out that people were speaking Polish or reading Polish books, they would kill them or punish them harshly.

 Chris: Also, as I said before, literature was important.  For example, Sienkiewicz wrote many books that depicted the glorious part of Poland’s history, and he gave them something to hope for and uplifted their hearts.

 Teresa: But also, I think, the families were very important in keeping Polish traditions and culture alive.  Polish people pretended not to speak Polish at their jobs or on the street because of the government, but when they went home, they spoke Polish to their kids.

 Chris: Faith in religion, Catholicism specifically, also played an important role in this because people could come together at church and speak their language and share their faith.

 Teresa: Yes, because people knew that other faithful people were praying, and also believed that “God will help us” and “someday we’ll be free”, so I think that helped.

 Chris: Also, traditions and history kept the Polish people unified.  People inherited values from the old country, and were proud because of their country’s history.  In the 16^th century, Poland was the strongest nation in Europe, and writers and painters would depict famous events that helped people have hope that it could return to its former glory.  A few of the most famous of these writers and painters were Sienkiewicz, an author who put in Polish hearts the idea that they would one day be free, and Matejko, the famous painter. 

 Teresa: Some of the books that were written by Sienkiewicz and others were not actually obvious propaganda; instead, they had symbols in them that represented parts of Polish history or tradition.

 Chris: Also, Poles were proud that their ancestors and countrymen, such as Pulaski, had helped fight for US independence and set up important institutions such as Westpoint in America.

 Teresa: They had pride in their 1000 years of history and the fact that they had survived and would become strong again.

 Chris: 98 percent of the Polish population is Polish, so there are not many minorities in the country.

 Teresa: When John Paul II, a Polish man, became the Pope in 1978, he helped strengthen Polish American identity.  For example, two women in our family, Aunts Bernie and Stella, were Polish-Americans; their parents were from Poland but had moved here before they were born, so they could understand Polish but couldn’t speak it very well and didn’t hold on to many of the traditions.  But they were very strong Catholics, so when they saw that the Pope was Polish, they felt that their identity was renewed and strengthened.  All the Polish people were united when the Pope came to visit our country.

 Amanda: Drawing on the idea of unity that you just mentioned, would you say that there is division within Poland among different Polish people?

 Dagmara: No, I’d say everyone’s united in general because of their traditions, history and way of life. There aren’t too many big conflicts or divisions.

 Amanda: What do the symbols on the Polish flag signify?

 Chris: On the Polish flag, there is a white eagle in the center that has wings and a gold crown, and it is on a red background.  The white symbolizes innocence and the red symbolizes royalty and courage.  The crown on the eagle refers to the royal heritage of the crest, and the eagle comes from an ancient legend in Poland that says that an ancestor of Poland, Lech, came and saw an eagle and Poland and decided to settle there.  The eagle is also important because it’s distinguished, strong and regal.

 Amanda: Do you think that the European Union has been a threat to Polish national identity and heritage?

 Teresa: No, I don’t think it’s been a threat at all. The European Union has brought people and tourists to the country, and it has been positive because it’s exposed more of Poland to the world.

 Chris: Poland is no longer isolated in the “Iron Curtain”.  It seems like it’s now Poland’s time; this can be seen in an advertisement that you see often in Poland: “Teras, Polska”, which means “Now, Poland”.

 Teresa: Also, the Union has given an opportunity for Polish people to work and study in other European countries and bring that knowledge and experience back to the country.  It also has helped build the economy.

Dagmara: One thing that people are afraid about that, though, is that young Polish people would want to leave for better opportunities and immigrate to other European countries.

 Teresa: Yes, I guess that is one downside of the EU, because especially with the awful health system in Poland, people are afraid that more doctors and nurses will leave for a better life in other countries and make the system even worse.  Still, other countries don’t want to take our country’s identity and heritage away from us.  Overall, the European Union has been very good for Poland.

 Amanda: Thank you very much for taking the time to talk with us.  We really appreciate it.

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